Laracon Sessions with Taylor Otwell, Jeffrey Way, Matt Stauffer, and Adam Wathan
July 18, 2017

"Laracon Sessions with Taylor Otwell, Jeffrey Way, Matt Stauffer, and Adam Wathan" Full Transcript

This is the full transcript of the Laravel News podcast episode #42 - “Laracon Sessions with Taylor Otwell, Jeffrey Way, Matt Stauffer, and Adam Wathan

Jake Bennett: Hello and afternoon everyone. Welcome [00:00:30] to episode 42 of the Laravel News Podcast. We have a very special podcast for you today. We wanted to have some special guests on to talk about upcoming Laracon. Michael, who are our guests today?

Michael Dyrynda: Today we have with us the one and only Taylor Otwell. We have Matt Stauffer. We have Jeffrey Way and last but not least Adam Wathan.

Jake Bennett: We actually recorded this a little bit separately so we're going to cut it in after this, but we talked about some really fun stuff, talked about basically what the event's going [00:01:00] to look like this year, a little bit of the venue. Then we talked with these guys about what they're going to be talking about this year. On the website you may notice that they have the listing of speakers and the schedule up there, but they do not have what they're going to be talking about. We got a brief overview of each one of the talks from the gentlemen on the show and it was a lot of good fun. Here it is. Really hope you enjoy it. Thanks.

Well, thanks everybody for coming on this morning or this afternoon I suppose. It's going to be a crazy show trying to figure out how to get everybody in, but hopefully we'll go well. [00:01:30] Thanks for just taking a little bit out of your afternoon. Taylor, Michael had informed me that you might ... Are you in under time constraint at all?

Taylor Otwell: I don't know. My kids downstairs unsupervised. We'll see how it goes. He's playing. That's where the sirens are coming from, Michael.

Michael Dyrynda: The sirens are a big part of Chicago from what we've heard.

Jake Bennett: Taylor, we'll start with you so we can kind of ... If you do need to tend to your child, then that'll be fine. Quick story. This is [00:02:00] an absolute terrible dad move today. I've been working on painting some rooms and I took the outlet covers off of the outlets and the kids during their nap had not stayed in their rooms. One of my kids screams. I'm like, "What in the world?" I go over there and she had put her finger in ... She was trying to put that on and stuck her finger in there.

Taylor Otwell: Did she scream because she got hurt or is the scream totally separate?

Jake Bennett: [00:02:30] She was scared. I think she was just terrified. She couldn't tell me what happened except for that she was pointing at the light thing and there was no cover at it. It's terrible. I think they're all back on now. Anyways, there you go. Anyway yeah, Taylor, if you hear screams, just let us know and we'll let you go.

Taylor Otwell: Okay. Cool.

Jake Bennett: Well Taylor, just wanted to first thanks for putting Laracon together again this year. I know it's a crazy ton of work. Have you had like anybody helping you with this? Do you have like a team that you've [00:03:00] employed to help you with this or has Mohammed been doing anything or you got Abigail working on the side doing stuff for you?

Taylor Otwell: I would say this year is definitely the year where I've put the most work into it myself. I'm trying to think of people that are helping. The designer that works with me part-time, Steve, has been designing a lot of the artwork. He's been helping in that way. Then Jessica who worked with the first couple Laracons has helped me with badges, but other than that it's kind of been me working with sponsors [00:03:30] and speaker dinner and caterers and speakers themselves and the venue and all that. This has definitely been kind of the busiest year for me personally. Hopefully it goes okay. I think all the ducks are in a row now and everything is pretty much ready to go. Hopefully we have a good event and everyone has a good time.

Jake Bennett: Yeah, absolutely. This is the second time in New York City. I'm sure kind of last year was maybe a little less stressful than other events have been in the other years just because it was kind of a repeat city, repeat venue. It's in New York again [00:04:00] this year. It's at a different venue. Could you tell us a little bit about the venue? Is it in Times Square or right near there?

Taylor Otwell: It's really close to Times Square. It's just a few blocks away. Definitely walking distance. It's a pretty cool venue. Actually the venue itself, the main body of it is actually underground. You enter the building at street level and it's got a nice little park actually up above it with a Starbucks and some sitting area and stuff like that. Then you actually walk downstairs almost immediately when you go into the venue to the kind of registration check in area [00:04:30] and all of the theaters are downstairs. There'll be one theater that's ... I think it's a 300 person theater that will be where the science fair is going to be which is kind of like the unconference part of the conference. Then there's a 500 person theater where the main track of the conference will be.

Jake Bennett: I am curious to hear about that a little bit like the science fair. That's a new thing this year. Have you had a good response to that? You put a little tight form out there a while ago. Have you had quite a few people respond to that?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah, I think so. We have 36 open spots. [00:05:00] Those are 10 minute talks and there will be three for each regular talk and there will be no science fair talks at all during the opening talk, during my talk and during Jeffrey's talk because I thought that would be sort of the main times you might not have any attendees in your talk. Other than that, I think I had 26 responses so far so there's in theory 10 open. Someone could sign up for those at the conference if they kind of get there and they see it and they see more comfortable [00:05:30] and they sign up right there or they may fill up before then. I don't know. Shawn McCool who actually heads up the Laracon EU conference is going to be in New York and he'll be kind of manning the science fair track.

He'll be in that theater the whole time and helping speakers kind of move along and stay on schedule and stuff like that.

Jake Bennett: That will be excellent. Shawn McCool hasn't been able to attend the last couple of years I don't believe. I remember seeing him. Last time I saw him was when we were in New York City actually.

Taylor Otwell: I think that was the last one he was at.

Jake Bennett: I know that last year as well we had a really [00:06:00] excellent kind of after party after that first night. That was really, really fun. Do we have anything planned like that for this year?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. I think it's actually going to be even a little better this year. The first night after party will start at around 5 or 5:30 whenever my talk wraps up. We really don't have a time limit on the venue the first night so we can stay for a while, but the first hour will be sort of a host bar like usual where people can get a drink. Then there's also this year going to be some snacks and food which we didn't have last year. Then [00:06:30] Bo Simonsen who is a PHP develop and Davos [inaudible 00:06:35] is going to be deejaying live at the party because he actually is an actual DJ that does like really cool mixes and stuff. He's going to be bringing his DJ setup and deejaying live at the venue. It's going to be a fun time I think.

Jake Bennett: Adam, maybe you could throw a couple guitar solos in there or whatever.

Adam Wathan: I don't know if I got enough to get my chops back between now and [00:07:00] then.

Jake Bennett: I'm also curious just to know. I know there was kind of a lot of people in your ear maybe about destinations for this year like where Laracon was going to be. I know some people had asked about like maybe West Coast or whatever. I had two questions. Number one, is there any possibility of a West Coast Laracon in the future? Then number two, what were the deciding factors that kind of pushed you towards New York City?

Taylor Otwell: Actually there were three cities that were really close to having our conference this year. [00:07:30] One was San Diego, one was San Francisco and then of course, New York. With San Diego, it just I didn't feel like I could find the right size venue that was kind of the style that I like or was kind of a theater seating and had good AV capabilities and stuff like that. There was a really sweet venue in San Diego, but it only held 300 people. It was my favorite venue, but it just wasn't big enough. Then in San Francisco, there was also a pretty cool venue, but they just kind of flaked out in like responding to [00:08:00] me which happens a lot actually when you're trying to put on event.

A big challenge is getting people to respond to you and talk to you and be interested in you. I think especially in bigger cities where they probably have tons of business and they're not really struggling for people that are interested to use their venue. You kind of get lost in the mix sometimes. Then with New York it was more just a strategic decision where it's the most densely populated area in the country when you take into account like Boston and Philadelphia and all that. You're talking about [00:08:30] a significant actually percentage of the US population in a very small land area. It sort of made the most sense that way. That kind of panned out in the ticket sales where they sold really quickly this year.

I think it was basically entirely sold out in maybe five or six weeks, whereas last year we actually didn't sell out at all. We had I think about 50 tickets left. It was a slightly bigger theater, but this year it sold out really quickly. I think we have a thousand people in the waiting list. It was a very popular destination.

Jake Bennett: [00:09:00] I was going to ask about that actually. I was thinking that probably had to do something with ticket sales, right? The fact that literally you have a huge, huge waiting list. I see every once in a while you put out on Twitter like, "Hey, we've got three tickets available. Ready. Go." They're probably gone in like seconds, right?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. Usually I'll get three or four cancellations and I'll let them kind of build up until I have three or four or five of them to release at once especially with people buying tickets so early this year. I feel like some people bought them in such like a rush that they didn't even think [00:09:30] about if they would be able to go. They were just getting them, securing them and then if I go, great. If not, I'll just get a refund or try to sell it or whatever. I actually had to process probably about 35 cancellations and of course we sold all those tickets back out, but it was a lot higher than previous years I think because people were in such a rush to secure them early.

Jake Bennett: Yeah, it makes sense.

Michael Dyrynda: Why wouldn't you want to come along this year? I mean we've got Laravel 5.5 coming up. We've got Horizon which you slowly started to ramp up the teasing on. [00:10:00] I guess we'll open it up to not only yourself, but the other folks as well, what is the number one favorite feature coming out in 5.5?

Taylor Otwell: Well, I've used a couple features. Like I'm working on a pretty big project, something beyond Horizon even now. Some of the main features I found that I've been using on 5.5 are job training which lets you specify a job that's going to run after whatever job you queued or whatever. You can kind [00:10:30] of specify a line of jobs that you want to run sequentially. If any of them fail, it will stop running that chain. The other things I've used a lot are Adam's new validation rule feature that he sort of quasi-contributed over Telegram and not through an actual [inaudible 00:10:48] but we actually did kind of paraprogram that together which is where you can define a custom validation rule class.

It's a really simple class that just has like two methods like passes and [00:11:00] message. It sort of lets you encapsulate some complicated logic. Like for example in one thing I was doing, I needed to validate that a GitHub repository was actually a valid repository. Of course, that involves like an API call and stuff. Wrapping it up in a little valid repository rule class really made it a lot more readable and gave me a place to sort of tuck that API call to GitHub. There's a lot of little stuff really I feel like that sort of adds up. [00:11:30] There's new routing methods for routing to views and redirects. I don't know. Adam's been using 5.5 so he may have some ideas.

The new testing database I think which is another quasi-Adam feature contributed over Telegram, but when you run your test ... We used to have two options where like it would run all your migrations up and down for every test I guess or it would start a transaction for every test. Neither of them were sort of ideal where like the migration when it sort of slow [00:12:00] and the transaction one if you've added a column since the last time you ran your test and your testing database is not going to be up to date when you run your test, so you're just immediately going to get an error. Adam had kind of devised this best of both worlds thing where when you run your test it will migrate your database sort of once and then from then on it will use transactions.

It tries to be like the most ideal way of doing it while never forcing you to think about is your database up to date or anything like that. [00:12:30] It's just sort of always up to date. I'm going to demo some of that stuff at Laracon so you can actually see it in action and see what I mean. I've got a whole list of other features I want to show at Laracon too in addition to Horizon.

Michael Dyrynda: Very cool.

Jake Bennett: That's cool. I didn't know about that. Is it a third trait that you would import?

Taylor Otwell: In 5.5, it's the only trait that's in there by default.

Jake Bennett: Oh okay. You no longer have database migrations and database transactions?

Taylor Otwell: They exist. They exist so like your code won't break if you update, but by default now, the default trait is [00:13:00] called refresh database.

Jake Bennett: Okay. I think that's cool.

Adam Wathan: Because I think that can confuse people. They create like a test using one of the generators and they immediately see those two different traits and they think, "Well, how do I know which one to do?" It's cool you've consolidated that. I agree. There's a lot of little stuff that's pretty cool. Even the custom blade.

Taylor Otwell: I thought that was cool and kind of funny like I mentioned the goal I think already, but the guy that submitted that [00:13:30] said they were kind of ashamed to send it because it was such a small PR. When I saw it, I was like, "Oh man. This is so sick." I can't believe we didn't even have it before.

Adam Wathan: It is funny. It's always the small ones that get people the most excited. Even I think collection dumping is pretty cool when you're debugging. It's such a small thing, but it ends up being really useful when you got some kind of weird tricky pipeline that you're trying to figure out. You can just dump.

Taylor Otwell: Chris Fidel's trusted proxy package is actually integrated into Laravel and 5.5 which is kind of nice [00:14:00] if you've ever used a load balance or anything where you load balancer has your SSL termination and it's passing traffic onto your web server and is not generating HTTPS links. That's why because you need that trusted proxy package. We always kind of recommended that package whenever someone had that question which it comes up quite a bit actually. Now it's so like standard that it's just sort of integrated out of the box.

Michael Dyrynda: That package is just pulled into the framework in 5.5, right?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah, [00:14:30] it's just in the composer.json.

Jake Bennett: One set of changes that I've liked between I think 5.3, 5.4 and 5.5 is that I've noticed that a lot of ... There's a lot of ways to do a thing where we've been introducing new ways to do the thing. For example, the blade if thing. That's not introducing something you couldn't do before. It's introducing a new way to do a thing that you could always do and there's been a whole bunch of those. I mean like the same thing with the custom validation. It's validation as a class or whatever else. I wish I had a full list of them, but I've noticed that between the [00:15:00] last few and 5.5 adds a couple, there's quite a few places ... Like for example, the console closures and stuff like that, console command closures. There's just more and more ways to do things.

I know some people don't like that because they say, "Well, now I don't know which ones to do." For me I think it depends on the project, it depends on how many people are working on it, it depends on the specific thing that I'm building. Having more options is something that I like a lot and 5.5 definitely continues that.

Michael Dyrynda: Yeah, definitely. Adam, Taylor said you've been [00:15:30] spending a bit of time with 5.5. What are some of your favorite features?

Adam Wathan: Actually almost every new feature in 5.5 is something that I think I'm going to use a lot actually. Like the custom validation rule stuff I'm really excited about of course since I kind of needed that and ended up putting it together. That's one of those features I think where once you start using it, you start realizing like, "Wow. What the hell did I do before? Build applications without this?" [00:16:00] Another one I'm excited about actually is like request validate. That's like a macro that I always built into all my apps because I hated having to be this validate then passing the request every single time or even like being able to render emails in the browser. That makes it so much easier to work on building out your email templates.

Just sort of lots of convenient stuff like the migrate fresh command. That's something that has bit me tons of times in the past. We try to run refresh, but because you've changed a migration like the down doesn't work properly [00:16:30] so you have to go into Sequel Pro and blow that manually. I just use that by default all the time now. There's some other cool stuff that's like barely even ... I don't know what the right word for it is, but people don't really know it. Like not really announced its features, but cool little things in there. There's just like responsible interface.

Jake Bennett: I saw that PR.

Adam Wathan: Which is pretty cool. You can just return anything that implements responsible from a controller now and define the logic for how that should be turned into [00:17:00] an HTTP response in that class. I like it a lot because it looks like a typo. There's lots of really cool stuff. I was working on my app in 5.4 and I'm always chatting with Taylor on Telegram and passing around different ideas for things that we can improve. I was finding myself like really feeling the pain of not having some of the new features. Once I like knew about them, I was like, "Oh, I just want to use that here." [00:17:30] I updated to DevMaster and I'm just surfing the wave now and see how it goes. It's not in production or anything.

It's all good, but it's fun to be getting all the latest stuff and getting to play with it before it's really out there. It helps us polish everything too by having ... Taylor's using 5.5 on real app. I'm trying to use it on a real app. You start running into things that you don't necessarily run into when it's just living in GitHub waiting for a release where someone finally tries it and [00:18:00] then the first day you have to release three patch releases to fix it.

Taylor Otwell: It makes me a lot more comfortable releasing it because I know that it's not fundamentally broken because I've been building like really complicated app on it. I feel like it's pretty solid. It is scary. If I have a release which I think 5 ... I guess 5.4 would be sort of like this where I wasn't actually using it on one of my own projects, where 5.3 I had just built Spark all the way through with 5.3 [00:18:30] so I knew it felt really solid. Then 5.4 I didn't really have that so it's a lot less comfortable. Now 5.5 I'm really glad that I have a serious app on it.

Michael Dyrynda: It's good to have that feedback. Yourself and Adam, do you find that you have anyone else that's actually using I guess the DevMaster releases? Are any of the Laravel partners or sponsors using it and providing that feedback? I know that you've got through the Paytrail and the ability for those people to like feedback and have weekly chats with you. Is that something that [00:19:00] those sessions take into account as well?

Taylor Otwell: I feel like most people building Laravel apps don't have the luxury of building stuff that basically doesn't matter at all because no one's using it except yourself yet. I don't know if many other people that are ... Like really giving it a real work through.

Adam Wathan: At Tighten traditionally I've kind of just spent some time on my own making a whole bunch of either fake apps or remaking a site app or that kind of stuff for the sake of giving this feedback, but we're never going to use it on [00:19:30] ... Once we have. There was just a whole round of features and there was also I think a PHP requirement, a few other things. We spent months. It was ones of those ones where it was more than six months that we were waiting on a release. We did. We had a very, very close conversation with Taylor as the rollout process happens and a lot of little like, "Oh, let's update this. Oh, let's update this." Other than that one project, we don't really run anything in prod until it gets released for clients at least.

Jake Bennett: It's been painful for me. It's been painful for me, to [00:20:00] Adam. I can identify with you. Having to do the Laravel News Podcast, we are pretty much up to date on all the features that are coming out on 5.5. I'll be working on a project, "Oh yeah. There's that one thing," and then I go look and it's like, "Ah dang, it's 5.5." It's painful. It's hard to wait.

Taylor Otwell: One nice thing about 5.5 is it never ... Really any of the releases actually, it never really feels fragile. If you wanted to use 5.5 now, you're basically good. I mean obviously tons of issues get filed, [00:20:30] but really when you're working on a project, it's fine. You're good to go.

Adam Wathan: It's the easiest update I've ever done. I literally just changed it to Laravel 5.5 at my composer.json. Added the auto discovery script that you have to add there to get that stuff working and ran composer update and my test were still green. It's awesome.

Jake Bennett: Oh really? That's it? There's no ...

Adam Wathan: I think there's some things you might want to change to take advantage of some of the new stuff, but I didn't have anything like [00:21:00] ... I didn't get bit by any breaking changes personally.

Taylor Otwell: I feel like the ones where it's been hardest to do that kind of upgrade where it's like, "Well, we moved where the routes move." There still should be a caution out there about trying this, but I totally agree especially in 5.5 and most of the time, it's not as if it's super fragile. It's beta. You're buying into something that nobody's making any promises not to change until the date it releases.

Adam Wathan: I remember the switch from Laravel three to four was a pretty big one and a lot of people were using the alpha Laravel four. If any of you remember, [00:21:30] that changed quite a bit. That could get a little frustrating, but it's like look, you know this going in. You're using alpha software so that's what you get.

Jake Bennett: I wanted to hit two things real quickly. Taylor, I had a question for you about these chained jobs. This is something that I had remember seeing a poor request so I went back and started looking at it started actually. My question is like so the payload that you're sending your first job, is that the payload that gets sent to all the subsequent jobs?

Taylor Otwell: No. Each job is sort of instantiated separately. What it looks like as you say like your first job [00:22:00] dispatch and pass it whenever you want and then you chain on the chain method to that which takes an array of actual job instances that you knew up. You're passing them their payload when you do everything. No, they don't all have the same payload by default.

Jake Bennett: If you do like a serializes model though, so like let's say that your job is going to affect something that's going to be in a later chained job, it just serializes it and pulls it from the database at that point, [00:22:30] right?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. You'll have a fresh copy at that point.

Jake Bennett: Right. Awesome. I'm definitely going to use that. I've a couple places where I've needed that and have found other ways around it for the time being until that's available.

Michael Dyrynda: We built that for our project at work. Well, at my previous job now and all that stuff got thrown in the bin when I left. It's handy to know that it's there in the future if I have a need to do that again though.

Jake Bennett: Taylor, last question on this part is Horizon. This [00:23:00] ready to go, everything? You wrapping everything up? It's going to be all set to go at Laracon?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. I think it's looking really good actually even in the past few weeks. Mohammed and I have been like really combing through it and making sure it looks really good and fix some things. I actually took a couple of months off Horizon. Horizon was let's say "done" back in like April or something like that because I wanted to work on this other thing too. [00:23:30] I had started on Horizon really early because I didn't want to be time crunched coming into Laracon. I had actually taken a couple months off Horizon. I was working on this other project for a while and came back to Horizon maybe like a couple weeks ago for the first time in maybe seven or eight weeks.

Immediately some stuff jumped out of me as like, "Oh well. This is stupid. I would never want it to work this way," which kind of scared me at first because I was like, "Wait a second. I've been away from it. Maybe I'm forgetting," but then I stuck with it for a few days and actually did ... Having [00:24:00] a fresh set of eyes on it after a while, I saw some things that were just sort of not exactly right. It really sort of brought it together and polished it up here in the last few weeks that I'm actually really excited about it and excited to show it. I think people are going to like it.

Michael Dyrynda: Are we going to see some more teasers from you on Twitter in the next week or are we just going to have to wait with bated breath?

Taylor Otwell: I don't know. I don't know how much more I can tease really. Soon it will all be there for you to see.

Jake Bennett: We all know it's the data [00:24:30] mapper for Laracon. Just spill the beans already.

Taylor Otwell: Oh gosh. Just drop it in.

Jake Bennett: Just drop it in.

Taylor Otwell: It's actually a Ruby Port. It's a Ruby Port. You could just drop it in. It's not big deal.

Jake Bennett: I actually saw someone did guess that I had written an entirely new language. You all greatly overestimate my abilities.

Adam Wathan: That's right. There's like a If you view that source, it's like Laravel, the language for [00:25:00] our ... Not the framework. The new language. I love it. It's just a matter of time.

Michael Dyrynda: It is. It is. Jeff and Matt, I think we'll turn the conversation to you both now. We missed hearing both of you speak last year. We missed Matt in entirety last year. Tell us a bit about how life has been, Jeffrey for you as a new dad and Matt for yourself as a second time father and by all [00:25:30] accounts, someone who hasn't slept for about 12 months. Poor Matt.

Jeffrey Way: It's crazy. I was actually really nervous. I did a podcast where I talked about this quite a bit, but just leading up to my child's birth, it was like really freaking me out. I feel like it's this one thing that really transitions you from like childhood to being an actual adult because like even when you're in your 20s, if you don't have kids, you can go to Waffle House at three in the morning and do whatever you want. Once you have a kid, [00:26:00] that stops. You don't go to a movie theater if you want. You don't go to dinner at midnight if you want. Like all of that stops and then you actually have to be a responsible person. Man, it's hard too. I was really worried how it was going to affect my job because I didn't know.

Taylor was telling me like they're going to sleep all the time, but then I would talk to other people who would say, "No, they're not going to sleep at all." I think as it turns out it's like rolling a dice. You have no idea what you're going to get. [00:26:30] It stressed me out like crazy. It turned out I think our baby was not as hard as Matt's, but I don't know. I don't have anything to compare it too. I want to hear from Matt what it was like.

Adam Wathan: Matt, tell me what it's like going from one kid to two. Is it twice as hard?

Matt Stauffer: In some ways it's not as hard and some of the ways it's twice as hard. I think that the shift that's not there is that shift you talked about. I'm going from being dad to being a dad. [00:27:00] Those kind of life changing shifts of not having control over Waffle House and movies. Not only has it been there, but the worst parts of it, the hardest parts at least in my world are within the first probably 18 months with sleep with the kids. I've been through a kid who sleeps terribly. You're right. It's a totally roll of the die. A lot of people have their first kid sleeps great and their second kid sleeps terrible. Both my kids sleep terrible. This time around rather than being so overwhelmed like last time where I was just like, "This is never going to end. [00:27:30] This is torture," now I'm like, "This is torture, but it's going to end." I think that for us in some ways it's a lot easier this time around. The thing that's harder for us is that in the last time one person takes care of the kid and the other person maybe is a little bit more of an individual human. With two, it's like one person takes care of the baby and the other one is taking care of the other kid. I know that once you have three, all of a sudden you're losing the numbers game. I can't even imagine what that transition is like. I want to caveat to everybody. [00:28:00] I mean my kids sleep terrible and so everything I say about the last year of my life is because of the way my kids are and not all kids are like that. I mean that's a huge important thing to know.

Michael Dyrynda: Just quickly on that, Adam, you're expecting your first one later this year. How are you feeling hearing all of these conversations about maybe children that don't sleep and maybe children and the two?

Adam Wathan: I have no idea what to expect. It hasn't really registered with me as being like a real thing that's going to happen yet. I [00:28:30] know it is, but at the same time I don't know that it is. It's pretty terrifying. I don't really have any idea what to expect. We'll see.

Michael Dyrynda: October, November that your child is due?

Adam Wathan: September.

Michael Dyrynda: September.

Adam Wathan: September 10th.

Matt Stauffer: That's soon, man. Go to Waffle House while you can.

Jake Bennett: Yeah, exactly. Having gone through this four times now, Adam, I can say it's literally that way every time for me. Every time it's like, "Oh, that's a thing that's happening at some point," but it's never real until the [00:29:00] baby's like crying in the room and you're like, "Oh my gosh. I have a child, another one," or whatever. It's pretty insane. It's exciting though, man. Congratulations.

Jeffrey Way: It was weird for me because my wife gave birth at like 11 PM and it all happened so fast. It's like we got done. They brought us back to the room. It's pitch black. The nurses just dropped off the baby and leave and then my wife was so exhausted she literally passed out. I'm sitting there in this dark room with this baby by myself [00:29:30] in the dark. It's very, very overwhelming. Don't get me wrong, it's like the best thing that it'll happen to you, but it's incredibly overwhelming. You're in for a treat, Adam.

Jake Bennett: Jeffrey, I wanted to ask a little bit, you had mentioned just before we started that you guys recently moved. I didn't know that that was happening or hinted that that was happening at any point really. Before you guys decided to do that, but I'm curious like what kind of went into that? You guys were in Tennessee, right? Are you still in Tennessee?

Jeffrey Way: [00:30:00] Yeah. Yeah. I've lived in Tennessee for a long time. A lot of it was just kind of wanting a change. Then some of it was just the fact that it turns out that running a small business in Tennessee is like really bad tax wise. My accountant basically said like, "Look, if you consider some of these other states, you're going to save a significant amount of money." It got to the point where I was like flushing money down the toilet every year that we stayed in Tennessee. It turns out Florida is really good for that. I think I'm an hour or two south [00:30:30] of Matt.

Matt Stauffer: Yeah, pretty close.

Jeffrey Way: Is that right? How far am I from Gainesville?

Matt Stauffer: Just under two hours I think.

Jeffrey Way: Not too far. It's fun, but nothing too crazy. We're trying to get moved in. It's amazing. Like every other home I've lived in, we get moved in really quick. Now once again that we have the baby, it's like you just don't have time. You can put them in their little playpen for an hour, but at some point they're done and it's like trying to do everything with one ... That's what having a baby is like is doing every single thing with one hand. [00:31:00] It becomes very, very difficult. We're getting there. We're getting there.

Taylor Otwell: My main theory about why Jeffrey moved is he was always seeing me post these pictures of like Arkansas stuff and he was so jealous of like not living in a cool state that he just felt so compelled to move somewhere nicer because he was so sick of me living here in Arkansas and just constantly rubbing in his face.

Jeffrey Way: Matt's going to move down here. You're next.

Taylor Otwell: Come on.

Jeffrey Way: We need to get the whole Laravel base here.

Michael Dyrynda: You just moved, Taylor. You can't move again.

Taylor Otwell: [00:31:30] I'm staying in this house until I die basically.

Jake Bennett: I actually had a question too for Matt and Jeffrey. I know both of you guys have kind of taken like many hiatuses from ... I mean obviously Jeffrey and Matt, you guys own businesses. It was not like you can totally step away, but Matt specifically kind of for Twitter and from some of the podcasting things. I guess I'm sort of considering doing something like that right now. We've got four kids now and I've got the newest one is like six [00:32:00] weeks old. I was just being curious. One of the fears has been like it's going to affect my career negatively. Have you found that to be the case at all or stepping away and then coming back in a couple months, is everything pretty much the same? Has it hurt you guys at all or what's been your experience with that?

Matt Stauffer: It was like a perfect storm. It was both the baby and then also writing my book. In writing my book I spent a lot of time writing things that I might have otherwise put in a blog. Between [00:32:30] that and then my wife being pregnant, I didn't travel much. A lot of good things happened when I either travel to see clients and also when I speak at conferences and then I wasn't on Twitter as much and then when the baby came. A combination of wanting to spend time with your family and then also just because I mean a lot of nights we get three or four hours of sleep. She's almost a year old now. Over a span of a year that really kind of weighs on you. It's just like you start having to trim down things.

I haven't been at the gym since she was born. I'm trying to work of bringing that back. The decision to do it was pretty easy. [00:33:00] Something's got to drop. What's going to drop? Being super outgoing and social and teaching stuff like that is something that I really love and I get a lot of life from, but there's only so many things I can do outside of basically work and take care of my family. The decision to make that shift was while I have incredible amounts of FOMO, fear of mission out, and feeling like I'm not as connected with things and missing the opportunity to kind of like be on the forefront of every new feature every moment, I [00:33:30] clearly made the right decision. My family's more important than anything else.

I can't say that there has been zero impact because I've missed out in the opportunity to kind of be discovering new features every day as they happen, whereas right now it's more like I'm listening to other people's reporting on them. I'll get back to that place, but there's been a solid year of me not kind of being in that place. I mean the first time I was well known in the Laravel community is because every time I learn something I'd write a blog post on it. That was my original place of being [00:34:00] known. Then second after that was giving conference talks and third after that was a podcast. Having dropped all those three, well yeah, sure.

If you look at my career as being closely tied to being kind of known, there's certainly got to be some sort of impact there. I think that while of course it's great to be putting out information and having your presence known and teaching people, I think the fear of like "oh god, I'm going to lose my career if I don't do those things" is something that we can't make our decisions based off of. I'm sure that if I had spent the last year tweeting fives times a week and writing [00:34:30] two blog posts a week and speaking at every conference I got and podcasting two or three times a week, that it probably would have had a more significantly positive impact on the future of my career and reputation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, than what I did, but I still think I made the right decision.

Did it have a negative impact? Probably. Do I care? No. Yeah, I'm excited that my life is slowly getting to the point where I'm going to be back because I like it. I get a lot of life from teaching people and sharing with people and stuff like that. In terms of your fears of your career, I think that it's good to be [00:35:00] aware of the positive impact that can come for you and your career and your reputation from being a public teacher, but there's like a very thin line of going from being aware of those things to like being fixated on them or obsessed with them or worried about what happens if you don't put out enough tweets or enough blog posts or whatever else.

As a person who loves affirmation, who loves kind of hearing good things and loves people being thankful for what I do, whatever else, I would just warn anybody else don't let that kind of drive what you to do. For you, Jacob, in a response to your [00:35:30] question, do it. You and I have talked about family enough. Don't worry about it. You're going to be good.

Jake Bennett: Thanks, Matt. Appreciate that.

Jeffrey Way: I think it's good advice. I wouldn't say I've stepped away. I mean I was just in a huge Twitter battle like a month ago. Actually I will tell you what I have done. It is something I worry about a lot is just the general addiction element to social media which really grosses me out because I feel it affecting me and I see it affect. When you think about it, every time you prepare a Tweet, it's kind of like this vanity thing a little [00:36:00] bit. You're putting it out and you're just waiting to see for those likes to come in or you're waiting to see for the retweets to come in. It affects us all, but when you think about, it's kind of gross. It's this vanity thing that we all have. One thing I've done, I deleted the Twitter app.

I've basically deleted all social media apps from my phone. Now that doesn't mean I don't check them, but I actually have to go to on my phone if I want to read it. I found that actually helps. Just the idea of like at all holding up your phone and you [00:36:30] see Twitter and there's 12 notifications and Facebook. It's this weird addiction where you have to see it and then you keep creating new posts and then new responses come in and it's this chain reaction. Where all of a sudden you're sitting on the couch with your spouse and you're both just looking at your dang phones. It's like what's going on here? It's something that really concerns me.

I once heard this guy talk about how because we are obsessed with feedback and when we need all of these form of [00:37:00] stimulation, we've lost the ability to just sit and think and sometimes when you do that, that's a huge benefit that allows you to just process things and consider things. When you're always looking at a phone or looking at an update or watching TV or usually you're doing three things at once, it's like you lose that ability to just focus on one thing at a time. That's something I think about a lot. I'm not very good at it, but I'm trying to get a lot better.

Matt Stauffer: To piggy back off that just a little bit, there's [00:37:30] a rapper who I love named Lecrae. Every single time he releases an album, you start noticing that he's out of the country for a couple weeks every time. I think the last time he released an album he was in Africa for a few weeks. I know that there's probably several motivations, but one of them is for him to be away from this just kind of like obsessive feedback cycle of looking at how people are tweeting about it and seeing what the news are saying about it. He just gets away. He doesn't listen to the news. He doesn't follow social media. He just kind of like disappears for a while and lets it go out there. I think it's [00:38:00] valuable for him to not obsess over those thing, but I think also ...

I talk a lot about this with folks who are also trying to get into this world of like being like a public info person who teaches people or whatever, you got to be careful of your motivations. Yeah, okay. I love teaching people, but at some point I start seeing that if I teach people certain ways, I get that feedback like Jeffrey was talking about. I get positive affirmation whether it's Twitter followers or likes or whatever else it ends up being. You got to be really careful of what your motivations are for things and that [00:38:30] doesn't mean you can't ever do anything knowing that will benefit you, but just be aware of those things and be honest about them with yourself. For me the inspiration from Lecrae was how can I start putting things out there?

When I say the thing is for the good of other people, how can I do things that help me make sure it's for the good of other people? One of that is not watching for the retweets and the likes and whatever else. Put the thing out there and move on to whatever else you're doing. Like if you have a metric, if you're obsessed with the activity dashboard in Twitter, well then when you send out a tweet, then close Twitter and then go on with the rest of your day or something [00:39:00] like that.

Adam Wathan: Have any of you guys read that Deep Workbook?

Matt Stauffer: Yeah. I read about like 50% of it and then we moved and then I lost it. I haven't read it yet.

Adam Wathan: There's just a couple things in there that I think are relevant to what we're talking about. They were kind of interesting. I don't remember the exact words he uses, but he sort of explains why you can do a lot more of that really good thinking when you're like out walking the dog or something like that because you have like just enough [00:39:30] passive stimulation. It's taking up that part of your brain that wants to go and like look at your phone or do some other stupid thing that's just like a distraction from thinking. There's a lot of interesting things in that book. I definitely would recommend it to anyone to check out.

The other thing I was going to say is I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago and one of the speakers said that his assistant every Sunday changes all the passwords to all his social media accounts and doesn't give them back to him until Friday. [00:40:00] When I get an assistant, I'm going to have her do that or him.

Michael Dyrynda: That's a fun way of taking care of that.

Matt Stauffer: It is something that really concerns me though. I don't know how much you guys think about this, but just the addiction part of like, "Oh, notification here." You go Twitter. You read your notification, then you scan a little bit. "Oh, there's one on Facebook." Then you kind of go through the cycle and then suddenly when you're at the end of the cycle, you go and start again because there is a new notification on Twitter. It's something I really worry about.

Jeffrey Way: It's sort of embarrassing, but the way that I find [00:40:30] myself trying to deal with that is just by making it impossible. It's embarrassing that I don't have the willpower to just deal with it, but now if like my wife and I are going to watch a movie, I literally will turn my phone off because if I reach for it and try to look at it, I'll realize, "Oh, it's off. It's going to take a minute for this to turn back on." That's just enough for me to be like, "This is stupid. Why am I even picking this up? I should be just focusing on what I'm doing," or same with like at night. I keep my phone in a different room now. It's sort of stupid to have to deal with these physical things to like get in the way of like breaking these stupid habits, [00:41:00] but I find it's been helping a little bit.

Matt Stauffer: At the same time if it works, then ...

Adam Wathan: It's like a losing battle too. I can't remember what I was watching the other day, but he was talking about how like sites like Facebook are very specifically designed to encourage that addiction element. It's not a coincidence that things are laid out in a certain way. They actually bring people on to help encourage that addiction element. It's like a losing battle right from the beginning.

Michael Dyrynda: Facebook's a little bit easier to put down simply because of their horrible sorting [00:41:30] algorithm. I feel that you can never find anything and you never see anything you want to see from the people you want to see anyways. It's easy to stay off of Facebook, but Twitter is a different base entirely I found.

Matt Stauffer: I'm trying to find what the thing is, but there's a podcast episode on my brother's podcast, The Mildly Alarming Podcast. I'll try to find it and send you a guys a link to it where they talked about how ... There's some loop and it's the thing that you get that like makes you happy in your brain. It's dopamine. I think it's the dopamine cycle maybe. There's this kind of this theory in gaming [00:42:00] talking about where when you ... I wish I remember all the specifics, but essentially when you trigger a certain thing in response to a certain other thing, it triggers dopamine and makes them want to go back and do that thing again.

In gaming and also in concepts of gamification, it's understanding like what behaviors can give a certain reward which triggers a dopamine thing and then you get that dopamine cycle. In gaming that means it's a game that people want to go back and play again, but in gamification and just like you said that the way they do notifications, the way they sort Instagram and Facebook [00:42:30] feeds or all those things, it's all about those dopamine cycles or unread counters. It's all about trying to understand and manipulate the things, the actual chemicals in our brain that get released in response to these things. We are being actively and intentionally manipulated with understandings of brain chemicals which is terrifying.

It's also why it seems like a big deal like, "Oh my gosh. Why are you making such a big deal of it," but it essentially is like an addiction. Would you go to any lengths to break an addiction, that chemical dependency? Sure. [00:43:00] Can I put my phone in the other room? Yeah, I think so.

Michael Dyrynda: All right. We've been running these at sessions with Laracon speakers over the last couple of months of these podcasts. We'll probably swing back to that now. I want to talk Jeffrey and Matt, as we mentioned earlier in the show, you most missed out on speaking last year. We are thrilled to have you back and both speaking this year. Did you want to give us a little high level overview of what you're going to be speaking about this year and we'll ask Adam the same question as well?

Matt Stauffer: Sure.

Jeffrey Way: [00:43:30] I'll go first. The original idea I had, I actually talk about this on the stage, but the original idea I had was this talk called All The Stupid ... Pardon my French, but All The Stupid Shit I've Done. It was just going to be this in-depth analysis of all the terrible decisions I'm made, full of real examples from like 10 years ago. I thought it would be really fun just to make fun of myself and it's pretty educational too, but I chickened out. God. You know what? I can't even think [00:44:00] of what my main talk title is. Slay the Beast. It's called Slay the Beast. It's going to be lots of real practical advice on just considerations for your code base. Just little things like did you consider that maybe if you did this, you could extract this? Blah, blah, blah, blah.

It'll have nine different items. I'm not going to say which ones they are, but nine different suggestions to clean up a got object or to clean up your views. I'm hoping it'll be nice and really good practical advice. I don't know. When you go to a conference, one thing I was surprised [00:44:30] to find is that ... You're not learning that much. My conference I thought, "Oh, I'm really going to level up," and it's not really like that. It's more of like to meet people and to get inspired. Many of the talks at a conference, like there's no code at all. They're more just like ideas. I notice whenever I do watch a talk where it's pretty code heavy whether it's a live coding or you're seeing actual code examples, I love it. I love it. That's what I'm [00:45:00] aiming for this time around.

Michael Dyrynda: We're going to have long form on Visual Debt at one of those night?

Jeffrey Way: I would love to talk about Visual Debt. I wish I hadn't gone with Visual Debt. While we're doing about that, I wish I hadn't gone with Visual Noise or just Noise. If I just named that video Noise, like Beware of Noise, I don't think it would have gotten a response.

Jake Bennett: This is so funny just with semantics. I mean literally, use the word debt and it just becomes like this problem. Yeah, Noise. Totally makes sense too though.

Jeffrey Way: I mean I still stand beside it. I think it is a [00:45:30] form of a debt. The idea of like every little piece of complexity you have I do think adds a piece of debt. That's why if you look like a java code base and then you review like a ruby class somebody made, it's like night and day. It does show you like even if they do the exact same thing, the ruby version is just so much easier to take in because there's not so much junk everywhere that you have to process every time you open the file. I do standby the idea that it's debt, but in hindsight [00:46:00] I should have just called it Noise.

Michael Dyrynda: I feel like the whole thing was taken out of context really simply because that video, that three minute video in isolation with none of the other things that you teach through Laracasts, sure, it can seem inflammatory maybe to again to anyone who's from outside the community, but to people who follow along and actually understand the context of that video, I think it was perfectly acceptable. It was not don't do this. It's like think about if you do need it.

Jeffrey Way: Yeah, that's the crazy thing is that so many [00:46:30] people I think who don't know me ... It helped their argument to interpret the video as me saying adding an interface is evil. It's like, "No. Do whatever you want." Isn't it funny though that the mere suggestion that maybe you don't have to add a return type, something that nobody even knew existed a few years ago, that no ... I would love to know what percentage of PHP code bases actually use return types. I bet it's overwhelmingly low, but just the suggestion to certain [00:47:00] people that you may not need to use return types if the project doesn't warrant it, that was so inflammatory to them. I think it says so much about the PHP community and not in a good way. Again not the PHP community.

It says so much about a hundred people who are very active on Twitter. The PHP community as we've talked about before is the Drupal community and WordPress and it's this very massive thing, yet so often we get fixated on the 40 people who get [00:47:30] us mad.

Jake Bennett: They're like the PHP community like trademark. You know what I mean? It's like when McDonald's had the 100% beef. That's their brand as the PHP community.

Michael Dyrynda: Matt, tell us a little about yours.

Matt Stauffer: My talk is entitled Custom Laravel. I'm not going to go into too much detail because then it would kind of ruin the fun, but there's two primary kind of concepts there. One of them is [00:48:00] that every time you spin up a new Laravel code base, you are going to do some measure of customization. In some ways you can kind of really look at every app as just customization of Laravel. Every Laravel app is really just taking the Laravel base and then customizing it until it does what you want, but there's a couple different ways to think about it. There's different ways of customizing some of which are going to be really valuable for onboarding new developers later or for upgrading to future versions or for taking advantage of feature that might not exist yet or you might not know about.

There's some [00:48:30] ways of "customizing" it that will potentially be really damaging, that hide logic and make it really difficult to discover where it's settled or whatever. I think the twofold is one of them is one is my ... What are the types of customization and the attitude and the metrics to use or the guidelines to use I guess for which customizations are really going to provide you the most value in the long-term. Then I think the second one is going to be a series of very practical kind of code based customizations that I think folks might not all be familiar with. [00:49:00] It's going to be everything from very, very beginner level to some pretty significantly advance stuff. It's kind of part theory and then part code.

Michael Dyrynda: Very good. I'm sure we are all looking forward to having you both back and speaking this year.

Jake Bennett: Adam, what about you, man? What have you got lined up for us?

Adam Wathan: I don't have a title for it yet. The tentative title is Resisting Complexity, but that's not spicy enough I don't think. I'll need to come up with something [00:49:30] better.

Michael Dyrynda: Resisting Debt.

Adam Wathan: The general idea is basically I have a dozen examples of interesting solutions you could use that are maybe a little unconventional based on some of the more superstitious design decisions I see people make in their code bases or just like little tips and tricks, things that I thought really changed the way that I thought about how I built apps with Laravel. Just going to try and walk through a bunch of interesting really [00:50:00] practical examples with real code, things that you could do to solve a problem in a simpler way. An example might be like well, some people find their controller's getting really out of control and like the immediate solution in their head is like, "Well, I'm supposed to use a command bust to solve this problem."

I want to show like well, maybe there's another way that you could solve this problem instead that you haven't thought about that doesn't take you down that sort of like complexity path. That's kind of the overall message [00:50:30] and I'm going to hopefully introduce people to some ideas or strategies that they haven't tried before that might make them rethink how to solve certain problems. It should be pretty fun.

Michael Dyrynda: There'd be live coding?

Adam Wathan: I haven't decided if I'm actually going to live code stuff. It's going to be all code. I just can't decide if I want to do it live or if I'm going to have stuff to just show. I prefer to live code it. I just don't know if it's going to make sense. I'm going to see if I can figure out a way to make it kind of interactive and not just [00:51:00] like static stuff on the screen at least, but we'll see how it turns out when I start running through it.

Jake Bennett: You could always pull a Ryan Sequence scope there with like an iPad Pro and start drawing stuff and no slides. That's it.

Adam Wathan: I'd be tempted to go up there and do it just in sublime. I don't know if you guys have ever watched any like Ben Orenstein's talks, but he has talks that literally are just an editor in Vim and the title of the talk is like at the top of the Editor. As he scrolls, the title [00:51:30] goes away and now there's code. He's just scrolling through this big file. Taylor does talks like this too actually where he's just got a giant reds file and the whole talk is just scrolling the reds file and that's the whole thing.

Jake Bennett: I was going to ask Taylor is you have kind of a feel for what's the balance of kind of technical talks versus soft talks this year. I was trying to look through the list of speakers to see ... I was trying to see like Laura Elizabeth is probably going to be ... I don't know if it's not code. The same with Michele Hansen.

Taylor Otwell: [00:52:00] Let's take a look. Let's take a stroll through this list. I'm looking through this. Mathias and Michele Hansen, they're actually presenting together. They're husband and wife. They're presenting together. They are talking about launching a six figure side business on Laravel. I think you could say that's sort of a soft talk. Then Justin Jackson I [00:52:30] think is doing marketing for developers. Laura Elizabeth is not code, but I wouldn't call it a soft talk. It's kind of designed for developers. It's definitely sort of in our sphere. I'll just run through the rest of the speakers, but I don't actually have any what Evan's talking about. I assume something Vue.js related. We heard from Matt. Nills is talking about Composer.

Some more advance Composer stuff and of course, he [00:53:00] co-created Composer. Then Freak I think is talking about building their dashboard with Laravel and Vue.js and web sockets and stuff. Sean Larkin is talking about Webpacks. He's on the Webpack core team.

Jake Bennett: That's going to be awesome.

Taylor Otwell: Tom is talking about multitenancy in Laravel which is a pretty hot topic I get asked about a lot. Then Jack Midade, I don't know what he's talking about. I think he maybe more of a soft talk, an inspiration talk at the end. Then Maxine from Algolia [00:53:30] is talking about some new stuff they've been doing with Algolia and view components and hooking it into your Laravel app and stuff. That will be kind of PHP and JavaScript and Algolia all mixed in one.

Jake Bennett: Like I said we've had a lot of the speakers on already to kind of give a little overview of what they're going to be talking about. I've yet to talk to any of them and not be super excited about what they're talking about. The multitenancy one from Tom should be really, really good. I'm stoked to hear that.

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. It should be cool.

Jake Bennett: I've been [00:54:00] to New York one time. The only time I went was at Laracon a couple of years ago, but I don't know if you guys are more familiar with New York City or if you have any suggestions for things to do. I know like there's like a ton of things, but if you've been there, what are a couple of things that people who haven't been to the city should do or what are some good tips you guys might have?

Taylor Otwell: I really enjoyed going to the top of the Rock at night. That was cool. It's at the top of the NBC building. You can just go and look out at the city at night. I also [00:54:30] went to the Tom's Restaurant which is featured in Seinfeld. The exterior of course is featured in Seinfeld. I just did the usual stuff. Statue of Liberty, World Trade Center, stuff like that. I don't know any hot local spots that only New York people know about.

Jake Bennett: We will be out there. I think Michael and I are both going to be out there the weekend before. If anybody listening to this is interested in hanging out, feel free to hit us up on Twitter. We'd be happy to meet up with some folks.

Michael Dyrynda: I think we're there on Wednesday this week.

Jake Bennett: We should be getting in Friday. [00:55:00] It should be fun.

Michael Dyrynda: I've seen on Twitter Taylor, you've been practicing for this ball game that we were talking about having. I'm getting a little bit worried.

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. I don't know. I'm in a basketball league right now. Just sort of a recreational league. I can't say it's going too well. Our record is not great. I actually had my best game of the year. Last game when I had 18 points, but before that I think my best was about 10. In our last game, we got [00:55:30] totally hosed by this one guy who I swear must have made like 10 to 15 three pointers. He's dominating us from the perimeter. Hopefully next week it will turn around and we'll get the W. I guess this Tuesday coming up.

Jake Bennett: All right, guys. Well, I think that about wraps up all the questions we had here today. Michael, you got any other questions for the guys?

Michael Dyrynda: I mean I know that you're all fairly prominent members of our community, but if you have anything that you would like to [00:56:00] speak or share with us, anything you want us to get our listeners to look at for you, now is the time to do it.

Taylor Otwell: Check out Laravel Forge. That's my main sort of business. If you need PHP server provisioned, check out If you need zero downtime deployment, you can check out Those are the two things I would plug.

Jake Bennett: Was it or is it ...

Taylor Otwell: Oh boy. Thank you. I almost lost all of those sales.

Jeffrey Way: [00:56:30] He didn't even know his own website.

Taylor Otwell: All of that went down the drain.

Jeffrey Way: For me of course, I also have like lots of other domains that just redirect the series at Laracasts because it makes me happy. Things like and, but it all just goes to Laracasts.

Matt Stauffer: I think

Jeffrey Way: I'm going to buy the rights for that. I love it. [00:57:00] That's great.

Matt Stauffer: Tighten is a Laravel Consultancy. Tighten, We do good Laravel stuff and other stuff. That's all I got. I guess I have a book.

Michael Dyrynda: You also have a few domains as well. We can't really say them on air.

Matt Stauffer: It's not acceptable to be pronounced on FCC regulations or whatever., That's what I got.

Adam Wathan: For me I have my Test-Driven Laravel Course. If you're interested in learning how to [00:57:30] build an app in Laravel with TDD, you can check that out at The other thing that I've been doing lately is I'm working on an app to kind of help me run my business where I sell my course and my book and stuff like that and try to move myself off of some of the third party tools that I use. The interesting thing about is I'm trying to build the whole app kind of in public and live streaming it and sending out a weekly update that kind of talks about the things that I did and highlights sort of a tip from each one of the live streams in detail with code samples and stuff.

[00:58:00] If that's something that you'd be interested in following along with it, you can head over ad you can subscribe to my YouTube Channel to find out when the stream's happen and stuff. Come hang out there. That's been really fun. Something I've been doing for the last few weeks.

Jake Bennett: Awesome. Taylor, quick question, between Envoyer and Forge, would you say that Forge is still your primary? Has Envoyer done pretty well? We use Forge and Envoyer for both of them, for everything, but do you have quite a few more subscribers in Forge than on Envoyer?

Taylor Otwell: Yeah. Forge does [00:58:30] have quite a few more subscribers. I think it just has a wider use case. Not everyone cares about zero downtime deployment if they just have a little hobby project. They don't want to spend 10 bucks a month just so they can save that one second of downtime or whatever. Forge is definitely still the kind of the big dog. My goal was to have both of them sort of be self-sustaining to where I could sort of work full-time off either one of them which that at least was successful so that if Forge crashes and burns in some disaster, [00:59:00] that at least I have Envoyer and can keep working on Laravel and vice versa. If Envoyer crashes and burn, I still have Forge. Forge is definitely just a bigger thing I think just because it appeals to a wider audience.

Jake Bennett: Awesome. All right. Well again, thank you everyone so much for taking some time out of your Saturday to come and chat with us. Looking forward to hanging out with you guys all at Laracon this year in New York City. Should be lots of fun.

Taylor Otwell: For sure.

Adam Wathan: All right.

Jeffrey Way: Thank you.

Matt Stauffer: Thanks.

Jake Bennett: See you all soon.

Adam Wathan: Thanks for having me.

Taylor Otwell: See you.

Jake Bennett: [00:59:30] All right. Well, that was the interview with the big dogs in the Laravel community. Thanks again so much for coming on guys. That was a lot of fun. This is episode 42. We do not have any news for you this week unfortunately. We are already over an hour. We're going to spare you the news this week. Of course, you can always find the latest news on Laravel happenings at Michael, you're always so good at it whenever I give you the opportunity. You want to give us the outro here today?

Michael Dyrynda: You say you give me the opportunity, but you always put me on [01:00:00] the spot. This is episode 42 of the Laravel and News Podcast. You can find show notes for this episode at If you could like, rate and review us five stars in iTunes or your podcaster of choice, that is always appreciated. If you have any questions or suggestion for future episodes of the show, you can reach us at Laravel News on Twitter or on our personal Twitter accounts.

Jake Bennett: Excellent. If [01:00:30] you have any feedback or questions, you can talk to us at Laracon in New York coming up quickly.

Michael Dyrynda: In about a week.

Jake Bennett: In about a week. Please feel free to come up and say hello. We would love to talk to you. I promise we don't bite. We are very friendly people. Come say hi. Michael, you might even have something like red shoes on or something, right?

Michael Dyrynda: I will have some red shoes and I'm going to try and track down what we call back home business socks so that will be like chin high, hopefully bright red, but maybe a contrasting [01:01:00] white. Come and find me. Say hello. If you see anyone sort of standing around on their own, not talking to anyone, invite them into your circle. Make them feel welcome. We're all here to learn, to make new friends. Certainly be there for anyone who's looking a bit on the outside.

Jake Bennett: That's another thing really about this conference. You'll learn a lot for sure, but one of the biggest parts of this conference is just getting to know the people in the community. If you're one of those people [01:01:30] who doesn't really like to talk to people, try as much as you can to kind of take the leap of faith and start talking to people. We've got a lot of really friendly people who are there. If you don't know who to start talking to, just look for the guy in the red socks and the red shoes or a really tall guy with spiky hair. That will be me. Looking forward to seeing you all there. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you soon.

Michael Dyrynda: See you. Bye.

Jake Bennett: [01:02:00] Usually we have to deal with this huge lag of like ... Michael is across the ocean there and there's a little bit of lag time. We just have to deal with that, but hopefully it'll just be a pretty easy edit for you, Michael. I have been worried about too much. [music 01:02:29]

Michael Dyrynda: [01:02:30] I mean they could just drop it in.

Taylor Otwell: You should be able to just drop it in. You'd think a big company like that would have their shit together.

Jake Bennett: If they're following solid, they should just be able to drop it in.

Taylor Otwell: They even swap languages. I want a piece of art on my wall that says drop it. We've joked about that for so many years.

Jake Bennett: We're coming back with some spice. I like it.

Taylor Otwell: You know what that makes me think of? It makes me think of the [01:03:00] ... You know Happy Gilmore? I want to have ...

Jake Bennett: That's just like drop it in.

Taylor Otwell: Just drop it in.

Jake Bennett: Give it a little drop, drop, drop. [crosstalk 01:03:12] I think so. I think that's a good thing.

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